TNa Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 I am curious to hear how others have followed this installation instruction. " ⚠️CAUTION! The Device and the load current circuit has to be secured by a cable protection switch in accordance with EN60898-1 (tripping characteristic B or C, max. 5 A rated current, min. 6 kA interrupting rating, energy limiting class 3)." Which device did u use for protection (brand, rating, existing or newly installed)? Did you change the max load of an existing circuit? Or wire a new circuit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrators Heinz Posted June 10 Integrators Share Posted June 10 @supportadmin Who can we ask for this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thgoebel Posted June 10 Members Share Posted June 10 EN60898-1 is for automatic circuit breakers only. If not, microfuses (e.g. 5x20mm) could be used. But this is not declared by the manufacturer… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_ Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 (edited) Hi, just installed one and came here to see what people say. I really like it, and it has some really good things about it! However. This is potentially a huge issue, I don’t think anyone has installed this device correctly, as this is not a standard fuse. I would have to return the 2 i bought as it’s impossible to pull new extra wires for me or lower the existing fuse that much. This would mean changing the fuse in the electrical panel (or pull new cables to the device from the panel), and also that whole group would now be limited to 5A (230x5 = 1150W) max instead of a “normal” 10A fuse with 2300W. Is this really correct? Or has the 5A maximum for the switch relay perhaps accidentally followed the max fuse for the device? 5A max fuse for the internal switch relay could easily be worked around (extra relay) but the circuit fuse is a different thing. Edited July 18 by Martin_ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvbshelly Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 The device supply and the switching relay output are connected to the same L in this device according to the schematics. I think that since the relay is only designed for 5A switching current, the entire device must therefore be protected with a maximum of 5A, so that in case of a fault the circuit breaker (LS) switches off before the relay / internal cabling / device generate damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_ Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 4 hours ago, tvbshelly said: The device supply and the switching relay output are connected to the same L in this device according to the schematics. I think that since the relay is only designed for 5A switching current, the entire device must therefore be protected with a maximum of 5A, so that in case of a fault the circuit breaker (LS) switches off before the relay / internal cabling / device generate damage. Hi! It's actually usual that devices have a relay that doesn't support the same A as the main fuse. See for example the Shelly 1PM Mini Gen3, it supports 10A main fuse but max 8A switching for the relay. https://www.shelly.com/en-es/products/product-overview/shelly-1-pm-mini-gen3#node-darrkgp14cqg0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvbshelly Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 The Wall Display seems to be special here, because 5A is required as an external protection. Perhaps it is just a coincidence that the relay also only allows 5A. External protection: 5 A, tripping characteristic B or C, 6 kA interrupting rating, Energy limiting class 3 Max switching current AC: 5A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_ Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 (edited) 18 hours ago, tvbshelly said: The Wall Display seems to be special here, because 5A is required as an external protection. Perhaps it is just a coincidence that the relay also only allows 5A. External protection: 5 A, tripping characteristic B or C, 6 kA interrupting rating, Energy limiting class 3 Max switching current AC: 5A Yes, in this case it's a coincidence (read design decision) that the relay and device needs 5A fuse. I have worked as an electrician for 10 years and as electrical consultant for 15 years and have never installed a 5A fuse except for special circuits for certain devices mounted in electrical panels. I would assume based on my experience that this makes this device a no go in 100% of homes (have you ever seen a 5A fuse in a home?) The great thing with this would be to change a normal wall switch with this and be able to control all devices in the home! New builds and for people that can redo their electrical panels or pull dedicated cables this would work for, but if correct this is a huge error in design and eliminates almost all easy installations in existing homes. If i change the fuse to 5A, outlets will have a maximum load of 1150W, that would not handle a vacuum starting due to inrush currents for the motor starting, even if the rated W of the vacuum is lower then 1150W. Edited July 19 by Martin_ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvbshelly Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 58 minutes ago, Martin_ said: would assume based on my experience that this makes this device a no go in 100% of homes (have you ever seen a 5A fuse in a home?) To be honest, no. B16A and B10A is typical here, B25 for specific installations like PV, rarely 6A. I. I have only ever seen 5A in industrial cabinets. I see the main problem in the fact that most users don't even read or understand the circuit breaker requirement and simply use the installed breaker because they are simply replacing a switch with the wall display. Unfortunately, it only becomes a problem when something really bad happens and then, for example, an insurance company checks why the electrotechnical standard was not complied with. Shelly cannot be accused of not clearly pointing out this circuit breaker requirement. Of course, it is a disappointment that it was not made possible to use a circuit breaker with at least 10A. I almost feel that with many motors you get a problem with the inrush on a 5A circuit breaker - since Shelly also allows C Characteristic, this would make it slightly better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_ Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 2 hours ago, tvbshelly said: I see the main problem in the fact that most users don't even read or understand the circuit breaker requirement and simply use the installed breaker because they are simply replacing a switch with the wall display. Unfortunately, it only becomes a problem when something really bad happens and then, for example, an insurance company checks why the electrotechnical standard was not complied with. Yes, agree 100% with this, no-one unless "technical" people will understand it or even look for it, but people will install it. 2 hours ago, tvbshelly said: Shelly cannot be accused of not clearly pointing out this circuit breaker requirement. Of course, it is a disappointment that it was not made possible to use a circuit breaker with at least 10A. I really wonder why this made it into the final product and how the conversation went during the design phase. At least C10A should be the minimum for a main fuse as you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_ Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Or, option 2 is to include a small fuse holder, to put infront of the display. That would be an easy option and cost almost nothing to include, that would secure the installations in an easy way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvbshelly Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Quote 5 A, tripping characteristic B or C, 6 kA interrupting rating, Energy limiting class 3 I'm not sure whether you can meet the specified requirements with such a fuse ... unfortunately, I'm not familiar with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thgoebel Posted July 20 Members Share Posted July 20 On 10.6.2024 at 13:48, thgoebel said: EN60898-1 is for automatic circuit breakers only. If not, microfuses (e.g. 5x20mm) could be used. But this is not declared by the manufacturer… Some days ago… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_ Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, thgoebel said: Some days ago… Hi, missed that post 👍 It's no problem the change a MCB for a micro fuse, but it can be a jungle also, there are different types of them, some a quick and some are slow. https://www.swe-check.com.au/pages/learn_fuse_markings.php FF or F type would be sufficient to replace a MCB, but agree that this should be specified in the manual! Then all would be OK as workarounds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvbshelly Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, thgoebel said: Some days ago… Oops, sorry, unfortunately I didn't remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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