PV Setup - configuration and understanding

[AlexAn]

@Dimitar we need it like this:

Grid Power Pro3EM 

If the total power of all 3 phases is positive then only the IMPORT ENERGY is active

If the total power of all 3 phases is negativ then only the EXPORT ENERGY is active

We don´t need the energy for the phases

 

House Energy = Produced Energy + Import Energy - Export Energy

 

Edited June 14 by AlexAn

[Jürgen Herweh]

Wie kann ich diese neue Funktion nutzen, wenn ich Solarstrom (Shelly Plus 1 PM) vor dem Hausnetz (Shelly pro 3 EM) einspeise?

Bei uns ist das so, das der Stromzähler im Keller verbaut ist (leider kein Platz für den 3 EM), dann eine Stromleitung in unsere Etagenwohnung führt, dort ist die Unterverteilung mit dem 3 PM.

Letztes Jahr, wurde eine Leitung 3×2,5 für das Laden meines Hybrid Fahrzeug vom Stromzählerkasten in den Hof gelegt, dort ist seit diesem Jahr auch das Balkonkraftwerk mit dem Plus 1 PM angeschlossen.

[Dimitar]

27 minutes ago, Jürgen Herweh said:

How can I use this new function if I feed in solar power (Shelly Plus 1 PM) before the domestic grid (Shelly pro 3 EM)?

In our case, the electricity meter is installed in the basement (unfortunately there is no room for the 3 EM), then a power line leads to our apartment, where the sub-distribution board with the 3 PM is located.

Last year, a 3×2.5 cable for charging my hybrid vehicle was laid from the electricity meter box into the courtyard, where the balcony power station with the Plus 1 PM has also been connected since this year.

For better understanding will be good to give us schematics of wiring. 

[frankymusik]

5 hours ago, Dimitar said:

Sie müssen den MiniPM so verdrahten, dass er negative Energie anzeigt, wenn Ihr Haus mit Solarstrom versorgt wird. Wenn Sie nicht wissen, wie das geht, kann ich Ihnen helfen.
Dann müssen Sie den Gesamtverbrauch des Hauses mit EM messen. So können Sie nach Belieben den Eigenverbrauch, die erzeugte Energie und die ins Netz zurückgespeiste Energie anzeigen.

Thank you for your quick response! I may have found myself a bit difficult to understand, somewhat confusing, expressed... Sorry!

Of course, I use a Shelly Pro 3EM for the three-phase recording of the currents in the hous

When I installed the Shelly Mini, it was not (yet) possible to capture "negative" currents with this device! Unfortunately, this function came later, which is why the Shelly Mini was installed in such a way that it now displays positive currents in the house when solar energy is fed in.

Of course, everything could be rewired again and again, but this is time-consumin

For this reason, I had the hope and the request that for this new function this sign of the Shelly Mini can be permanently turned around so that it is calculated correctly, just as this function now realize

For the Shelly Pro 3EM, a sign reversal of the current transformers in the app was also realized afterwards.

I could imagine that this effort is not very great for the programmers, and every user could choose the sign to display everything correctly without new wirin

Thank you for listening to our "worries" and wishes her

Many greetin

by Frank

Edited June 14 by frankymusik
Translated

[Helder Rodrigues]

8 hours ago, Dimitar said:

Yes, number looks pretty same and correctm but I didn't understand your picture. Can you re-make it please. 

 

Hi Dimitar,

Thanks for getting back.

Please see below. Orange line is just communication for the PV to know the taken energy.

Major difference is: consumption from Grid, I get always more from Shelly than from the Grid meter (I guess because Shelly is based on impulse and not continuously, and with battery there is always a change between retrieved and sent out). (Today Shelly has 1.24 but it was only 0.09).

Also with this setup I cannot get the battery supply vs PV supply.

Let me know if you need anything else!

Thank you!

Regards,

Helder

[AlexAn]

We should also be able to query the WR and battery via http and Modbus TCP, otherwise you won't get any performance in the DC range. If you want to represent the energy flow, a maximum of one count can be missing!

 

Grid:  we say in Austria "saldierend"  - depending on the total power, only one energy Counter is active

Import: Pro3EM

Export: Pro3EM

Until the Pro3EM can do that, the dashboard has no meaning!

 

Production: Modbus TCP, http, Pro3EM or Plug,1PM....

DC Storage over WR: ?? - Modbus TCP or http

AC Storage: Modbus TCP, http, Pro3EM or Plug,1PM....

House Energy: is usually not counted

Edited June 15 by AlexAn

[danielbiasioli]

HI, would be great now you have this to have additional Gauges to show Grid and Generated energy on the dashboard and the Mobile app. as part of the same tile would be nice to see the total consumption larger and 2 smaller gauges to the right showing the make-up of the total, grid + generated.

 

 

[Dimitar]

On 6/14/2024 at 11:21 PM, Helder Rodrigues said:

Hi Dimitar,

Thanks for getting back.

Please see below. Orange line is just communication for the PV to know the taken energy.

Major difference is: consumption from Grid, I get always more from Shelly than from the Grid meter (I guess because Shelly is based on impulse and not continuously, and with battery there is always a change between retrieved and sent out). (Today Shelly has 1.24 but it was only 0.09).

Also with this setup I cannot get the battery supply vs PV supply.

Let me know if you need anything else!

Thank you!

Regards,

Helder

Thanks, will check it because this should work if you set Paralel mode. Shelly measure continues, same way as your Grid Meter works. Maybe we do something wrong with exported energy. I see that you may use Deye. I may ask you to send me privately your Shelly account email and maybe we will ask to give us shared access temporarily to your Deye solar plant. 

[AlexAn]

10 hours ago, Dimitar said:

Shelly measure continues, same way as your Grid Meter works

No, Shelly can't do that!

We've been trying to solve the problem since the 3EM existed! Shelly needs to change the calculation to:

If the total power of all 3 phases is positive then only the IMPORT ENERGY is active

If the total power of all 3 phases is negativ then only the EXPORT ENERGY is active

We don´t need the energy for the phases

 

 

Important is House Energy from Solar

Houseenergie > Produced: Produced = Housenergie from Solar

Houseenergie < Produced : Housenergie = Housenergie from Solar

Produced 0 = 0 Houseenergie from Solar

 

Battery Counter:

Battery from Production

Battery from Grid

 

Battery to House

Battery to Grid

 

 

 

Edited June 16 by AlexAn

[Zaspanc]

Hello all,

nice idea and work for PV owners, congrats!

But some improvement is still needed:

I have some shared devices from other users in my account, that measure produced energy, but they are not really in my electrical network. That devices are located several km away and I only have those for comparison or for checking how it works etc.

I also have one EM that in some cases isn't working correctly (heat pump sometimes shows several watts negative standby, 8.72kWh total in last 12 months).

Would be nice to have an "offset" option, but that's another topic.

 

PV Setup shows me 1.04MWh generated in last 12 months! Does not compute... (energy from shared device)

So now I have a lot of electricity produced - false... I don't mind 9kWh, but with over 1000kWh "false generated" in same time is useless to have. It is not funcionality, it's a huge bug for someone like me.

 

Can you add "exclude" option for devices that other shares with me?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[GeCkO4lIfE]

This is what I was searching for. Perfekt! Please keep that! THX!

[kaosklown]

On 6/14/2024 at 5:13 PM, kosta2121 said:

In parallel setup, the formula "Grid source + Generated energy = Total house consumption" should be:
"Grid source + Generated energy - Returned Energy = Total house consumption"

Agreed, I have the same problem, I can't see how much energy I have used.

It says 21.6KWh

Where it should be : 3.4(GridSource) + 18.2(Generated) - 7.95(Exported) = 13.65KWh

 

Hope this gets fixed, this screen would be really useful !

[Anue80]

Hi,

I'm missing the functionality to set up a tariff for exported energy. I'm paid 0.811ct per kWh exported and would like to have Shelly sum it up. 

[daraghpender]

Hi - i have a Shelly 3EM and i am happy to see you have added a PV section to the cloud.

Can you tell me how i can see separate channels so that i can assign one to grid source and one to generated energy ?

On my dashboard i see only one device - when i click it and select Application Settings i can select either Grid Source or Generated Energy. I dont see where i can specify channel 1 is Grid and channel 2 is Generated.

You mention that the 3EM should be "set in Single phase mode" - can you explain how to do this ? 

I have it wired as single phase for 3 different circuits - as shown:

 

  

 

[Andreas Thüm]

Please add the category "Battery". Charge the battery "+" numbers and discharge "-" numbers.
Everything that exists now is just a tinkering. I have not equipped all PV generators with Shellys.
The calculations are therefore wrong again. However, I have equipped my batteries and my house connection with Shellys EM3 and EM.
Please be more flexible with the portal, your products are. You could create a matrix (formula) in which you can map your specific layout and then everything is calculated correctly. This number, sum, should then be able to be transferred to the pointer instrument in the cloud, using a selection option.

[thgoebel]

2 hours ago, daraghpender said:

You mention that the 3EM should be "set in Single phase mode" - can you explain how to do this ? 

This is possible with Shelly pro 3EM only:

 

With „Monophase“ profile, you’ll get three single devices, one for each channel.

Edited June 18 by thgoebel

[ThomasSchramm]

Hallo, in der Echtzeit Anzeige wird das Vorzeichen (-/+) der Netz Messung Ignoriert. 

[Dominik]

On 6/13/2024 at 3:04 PM, Leo said:

Balcony PV: (Grid Shelly Pro 3EM, PV Shelly EM)

Should I turn the clamp over to get negative values from EM?

Thanks 

I have Same Problem. How tonget negative values from the Shelly which is  directly after the Inverter.

[Dominik]

Is it possible to implement, that the Shelly Plus 1 PM is capable to Display negative values?

My Balcony PV has a Plus 1PM directly after the Inverter.

[Dominik]

On 6/13/2024 at 6:06 PM, Leo said:

Citation: …It's important that this Shelly device reports Negative energy when the PV system supplies your home with energy! This device must be set as "Generated energy" appliance type.

Can you add an option (Shelly EM) to change the measuring direction of the Power converter like Shelly Pro 3EM?

This would bei great as i have an Plus 1PM directly after the Inverter of thr Balcony PV and cannot Change to negative values

[daraghpender]

22 hours ago, thgoebel said:

This is possible with Shelly pro 3EM only:

 

With „Monophase“ profile, you’ll get three single devices, one for each channel.

Hi - thankyou for pointing this out - as it is not explained anywhere. So - the 3EM can not be used for Solar reporting.

Lets hope Shelly can implement a software fix for this.

[Jan Timm]

A three-phase electricity meter in Germany measures the energy consumption of a household or business connected to a three-phase power grid, also known as a polyphase system. This system includes three phases (L1, L2, L3) and a neutral conductor (N).

Basic Operation of a Three-Phase Meter

1. Structure: The meter has three measurement units, one for each phase (L1, L2, L3). Each unit measures the voltage and current of its respective phase.

2. Measurement: The meter calculates the energy consumed by each phase based on the measured voltage and current.

3. Total Energy Consumption: The total energy consumption is the sum of the energy used by each of the three phases.

Saldierung (Balancing)

Balancing (Saldierung) is essential for reconciling the energy produced and consumed across the phases.

Simple Balancing

• Each phase’s consumption and generation are measured separately.
• If a phase generates excess energy, this is subtracted from the consumption of the same phase.

Phase Balancing

• Excess energy generated on one phase can offset the consumption on other phases.
• For example, if L1 generates 2 kWh more than it consumes, this excess can reduce the consumption recorded on L2 and L3.

Importance of Balancing

Balancing is particularly important for households with renewable energy sources like solar panels. It ensures that the generated energy offsets the consumption accurately across all phases, leading to fairer billing and more precise energy accounting.

I'm afraid that all your efforts will be in vain if the balancing is not taken into account in the histories. In any case, I have a very simple setup here, but it is not shown correctly here because we balance the phases and it does not appear here in any history.

I mean, it is totalized, but not in real time. If the view has a bin with a minute, then this minute is totalized, if it is an hour, then over the hour. But that is wrong here. A 3-phase counter sums almost in real time, i.e. in the high Hz range. In addition, there is what ThomasSchramm writes. The source has a bug and cannot accept negative values. So it always looks as if a lot of power is taken from the grid when there is a lot of sunshine, but is fed into the public grid. 

Thank you very much and stay healthy!

Edited June 19 by Jan Timm

[tvbshelly]

On 6/14/2024 at 10:21 PM, Helder Rodrigues said:

Hi Dimitar,

Thanks for getting back.

Please see below. Orange line is just communication for the PV to know the taken energy.

Major difference is: consumption from Grid, I get always more from Shelly than from the Grid meter (I guess because Shelly is based on impulse and not continuously, and with battery there is always a change between retrieved and sent out). (Today Shelly has 1.24 but it was only 0.09).

Also with this setup I cannot get the battery supply vs PV supply.

Let me know if you need anything else!

Thank you!

Regards,

Helder

This is exactly the same setup that we have. Unfortunately, the Shelly PV calculation is currently incorrect, as already described by several previous users.
The export to the grid is incorrectly counted as domestic consumption.
I have so far helped myself (before the PV Dashboard existed) by putting the two Shelly Pro 3EM in a common room called "House:

Shelly Pro3EM GSW is the shelly on the grid side, Shelly Pro3EM PV is directly on the feed-in from the inverter.
The value of this room is exactly the house consumption. 
Unfortunately, the output of some values in the standard overview is also incorrect because exported energy (although negative from a grid perspective) is shown as a positive number. This may be the reason for the incorrect calculations.

I will be happy to give you access to my installation, too, including access to the measurement data from the inverter as far as possible. I don't think it's that difficult to find the right calculation.

Edited June 19 by tvbshelly
Update picture

[tvbshelly]

Perhaps the whole calculation problem has its origin here (standard dashboard):

According to the inverter display (and also according to the Shelly Pro 3EM, which measures directly on the grid meter), we were feeding 9,82 kW into the grid at the time of the screenshot. Feeding into the grid means that the measured kW value is negative (green on the Shellys own tile), but the value shown here in the graph is positive. The inverter produced 10,12 kW (only 10 kW according to the inverter, because that is the maximum power output, but I think this small deviation is unimportant). We have a 3rd Shelly that measures the consumption for the heating (currently off, the 23,03 watts are standby consumption).

The problem is the value for "Unknown" (dashboard says: "Grid source + Generated energy - All known appliances."):
The house consumption is currently 0,3 kW, which is also displayed by the inverter, so the calculation should be 10,12 kW (PV) - 9,82 kW (grid) (which in reality is a negative number) = house consumption 0,3 kW.
But it looks like you are calculating like this: 10,12 - -9,82 kW (i.e. double minus, resulting in plus) = 19,94 kW - 0,023 kW for heating = 19,91 kW -> exact the output in the graph - but in my humble opinion this is wrong.

Here is the overview graph and the values of the two Shellys (Grid (GSW) + PV) - although at a different point in time, but the calculation error is identical here:

Edited June 19 by tvbshelly

[AlexAn]

I think Shelly should do the homework and get the balancing correct before continuing with the dashboard. I have no idea why people think they are constantly ignoring this fact. The way the energy is calculated now makes no sense! For the 3rd time we need a mode for balancing and one for phase operation.

Edited June 19 by AlexAn